Pantheism: debates on fundamentals

Pantheism is an ideology that welcomes everyone. It is an ideology that can be practiced alone in the woods under a tree while the sun shine steams down upon you like golden mirth. When I look at the sun and the stars, and marvel at the fact that we are all just star dust, I am at peace and at one with it all. RON HOOFT

Pantheism is holistic emphasizing the unity of all things, as contrasted with their atomistic separation. Second, it is spiritually inclined without necessarily invoking any institutional religion or even the notion of God. Third, it is ecologically oriented, as ecology provides the key for healing the world and ourselves. RICHARD TRAFFORD.

As I read the pantheism sites and took the time to meditate on the exquisite telescope photo's something broke loose in me and I began to soar with bliss. I could hardly move as the waves washed through my being. I had come home! I have always be an aesthetic however somehow....I never connected the beauty outside "with" the beauty inside. Outside was just that! God was "somewhere" in heaven and I was here on earth...looking...at creation Was I in for some enlightenment!! Now I know that it is the same....very wonderful same...thing .... As I share these thoughts with you I can feel the precious vibrations of agreement running all threw my being. This is such...a "glorious" revelation! Now I am.....finally connected with creation and not Separate. DOREEN ESBERK.

It seems that everyone becomes aware of Pantheism the same way. They always felt that way about god and the universe. But were just too afraid to say anything, thinking everyone would think they were crazy. That's exactly how I found it too. Scientific pantheism in at least the form we describe is very simple. The belief that the universe is! It created itself without any outside help from a deity and that we are in awe of it and the nature it created from itself here on earth. LEE ANDERSON

I have come to the conclusion that The Personal God, life after death, and the immortality of the soul are really not that important. This moment is all there is, the past has gone and the future has not yet happened. RICHARD TRAFFORD.

In terms of its contribution to life, pantheism has great promise--similar to the promise of many religions (which do not seem to be able to deliver, at least for us). Namely, it promises, to help (at least in thought) to restore wholeness, which is lost in the day to day struggles that set us apart from our fellow humans and the rest of nature. It tries, moreover, to give us a framework in which the nature which has been studied by science in a value-neutral way, can be reinterpreted in a way which is emotionally invigorating and satisfying. JAN GARRETT

It is only when Existence Itself is recognized as the impenetrable Divinity that all the problems which religious apologetics cannot solve are solved; God is not a Being--He is Being Itself. SAIF PATEL.

I live every day in worship of my belief in god. But not worship to the point of being catatonic; worship in the sense that my actions reflect my belief in the holistic universe, everything tied together. ELJAY LOVE-JENSEN.

To be religious is to be profoundly moved, spiritually engaged, by the beauty and fragility and complexity of life all around us and the immensity of the universe. And to be attentive to that beauty and fragility and complexity in the brief time that I am here, out of all eternity. YVONNE SCHUMACHER

I don't think God is the driving force behind the universe, because the universe is the driving force. Rather, I believe that the universe is god, and i think this is the central theme to Pantheism -- God is everything, both substance and process -- The cosmos and nature are not moved by the divine, they are divine. JEFF PITCHER

And I have known to be a throng
A field of flowers, ten thousand strong
I now address their fragrance and refrain
And I have known
The clouds as my own
And beckoned their billows go through me
Up, then out and all around
I've merged with cosmos, sight and sound......
A heaven known of old.
STEVE HUMME

Just as a single cell of our body is part of us, we are in turn part of something much more complex than just ourselves. Not a god, but the totality of existence. RON HOOFT.

We don't want to convey the idea that a something existed before our universe, then created it (or was responsible for the birth of) our universe. This doesn't make sense for two reasons, #1 anything that existed is part of the universe. #2 There is no "such thing as "Before" the universe. "Before" is temporal, and the universe is space and time. Nothing, not even time exists without the universe. JEFF PITCHER

Last week when I came across the site I was enamored with the beauty of it., as well as with the Photos of which I downloaded and saved to experience them over and over again.
A few days later I went to my favorite spot in the west garden. As I entered..the fragrance filled my being. Something I had not been aware of before. I was alone, so I partook of the opportunity to just "experience" it. I listened to the wind ( spirit) flowing in the bamboo trees..... allowed myself to smell everything and feel the warmth of the sun.... I was sort of lost in the experience....
When I became aware of my surroundings again...I was on such a lifted level of awareness that I had trouble making it back into the building. The resonance lasted for a long time. I would have filled a book and I am sure it was a gift from the Universe to me. So very special. As I write to tell you about it, I am filled with a surge of the most exquisite energy. DOREEN ESBERK

I imagine we've all had some experience like a "reunion with the Real" Can you imagine trying to name that experience during the experience? True, this state does not take hours of meditation to achieve. It comes quickly, while picking up a stone, gazing into an animal's eyes, or simply sitting still - thinking, we might snap into this state.
Looking at the stars returns me to the real. Just staring into the stars, until your eyes loose focus. Often, I search the dark sky for a special bright star, then I focus on it. If you think "focus" you won't be able to. I just sit back, and let my mind wander, beyond the stars. Curiously, the other stars vanish, they actually vanish from sight. Its a trick of the mind I suppose, but It only seems to happen when you forget about yourself, and let yourself reunite. Everything, except the single star, disappears -- all the stars, trees on the horizon and dim lights in the distance vanish. The sky is black except for the single light. But as soon as you realize that the night sky has become black --in a flash, everything returns. Coming out of this relaxed state is as rewarding as going into it. No sense of loss exists, and while you focus on the single star your has to be empty.
During these brief periods, I forget about who I am and feel "more connected to reality, to nature." Anyone can do it, it happens quite by accident I guess, but its relaxing and creates a unique connection between you and the celestial body. TRY IT! JEFF PITCHER

May I suggest a form of meditation that has yielded many interesting and joyful moments for me. Sit anywhere and just begin to notice things in your immediate environment. Look at them. If you look at a book, notice also its form, its color, its texture, whether or not it is worn or brand new, the material it is composed of, does it cast a shadow, etc. Look for things (experiences within the object of the book). Do this with as many objects as you feel comfortable with, and try to experience the space around you, just in itself, as you consciously direct your attention onto your immediate environment. You may have some very pleasant experiences you haven't had for some time. Good luck and enjoy. STEVE HUMME

There is also something very fulfilling about stones. Paul said he meditates with beach granite pebbles. I'm partial to dark glacial stones with smooth yet complex shapes. When I did my research in Alaska, I got some of these stones from icebergs adrift in the fjords, and some from grab samples we took from the ocean floor. I also like to stack stones, and arrange them. My very first concrete pantheist ideas came to me when I was "playing" in my rock garden. I was a Christian, or at least a theist. I love to build things and I was a geology major so, I though it would be pretty neat to make a rock garden. I did, complete w/ gravel sand and a tiny wire rake to comb the stones. In the beginning, I found it neat, the relaxing, rake in one direction, then in another, then back in the same direction. Soon, I found that it freed me from distractions and emptied my mind. Here is a suggestion: Try going out to find your own stone, one that has a certain connection to you. Its a great adventure and very rewarding. JEFF PITCHER.

I wonder if any of you have given attention in your thinking to the second law of thermodynamics (the entropy law, if memory serves me correctly), and how does your pantheism deal with the fact (assuming it is a fact, and my understanding is that scientists generally accept it as fact) that disorder in the universe is destined to increase over the long haul? JAN GARRETT

I suspect what Mr. Garrett is really asking is that, since we seem to be relying on the "immortality" of the universe to guarantee the "recycling" process which allows us to remain active in it, how would we feel about the death of the universe? I only can repeat what I have offered before: The universe is as it is. I accept it that way. If it is to decay and finally grind to a halt or bring itself to an end, I accept that. I've no fear of the universe ending. I'm only curious as to what would happen next. :) We will be all gone. That is how it is. The matter and energy will still be there - or even if it isn't, then that is the end. The End. Are we strong enough to fathom this? JOOLIKINS

Is the universe good and rational? For me the universe simply is. It has no awareness of good or evil. Again, for me, the universe has no mind and so cannot be rational or irrational. Nor can nature. PAUL HARRISON

Disorder in the Universe increases (it's a physical law - 2nd Law of Thermodynamics). It's irrespective of your accepting it or not - it's well proven. RATAN MOHAPATRA.

I have to confess that I instinctively prefer certain ideas about the universe, which I would be pursuing if I were a physicist (without, of course, falsifying the data).
Two cosmologies attract me most, and both involve a potentially eternal universe. One is the "bouncing" universe, which ends in a big crunch and rebounds in another big bang. The other is Lee Smolin's idea of evolving self-reproducing universes, which bud off each other through black holes.
On the other hand if the scientific bit in scientific pantheism means anything, it means empiricism and accepting the evidence. So if the science clearly says entropy will increase, that's the way it is folks, so make the best of it and most of it. Not to accept this is similar to Christians saying "God is good" when all the evidence suggests that, if he is there at all, he is indifferent or capricious.
If the universe is destined to die a cold death, then I accept that. It would mean that the universe is mortal like we are, and will die like we do, just like trees do, just like the earth will several billion years from now. That gives us maybe another reason to love it. But basically I don't think we know the answer yet. The jury is out, and we can't be sure it will ever come back in.
The other point is that the formation of life and ecosystems and stars and galaxies to some extent works in the opposite direction to entropy. Gravity pulls matter into stars and planets, the laws of matter form elements and molecules and living things. So we should not assume that the universe is dominated by the Second Law: that would be an oversimplification, which is also to go against the evidence.
In other words, there is a strong principle of self-organization there, as well as the second law. PAUL HARRISON

For me the idea that the universe is divine is not fact - at least not in the way that trees have leaves is fact. It is a value-judgement based on several very simple empirical facts: the universe possesses the powers they tell us that gods possess; it is all-powerful, and practically (compared to us) infinite and eternal. In fact the universe's powers are the only telling evidence outside scripture for God's powers.
The universe also inspires feelings in most people of awe, mystery, appreciation of beauty. I would argue that these feelings about reality are the basis of the feelings that believers have for imaginary Gods.
Scientific pantheism accepts the methods of science, and accepts the evidence. But scientific pantheism is not and does not claim to be a science. It is a religious, emotional and aesthetic standpoint based on science and openness to reality and nature and evidence. That's what differentiates it from scientific socialism which claimed to be a science, when it was in fact a political programme. Now there's nothing wrong with social science, and Marx was in some ways a brilliant social scientist. But the mistake he made was to assume that social science was like a mechanical physical science, and that you could predict the future if you knew the past, and that communism was inevitable. But there were too many factors involved that he didn't take into account, and he had as much chance of predicting 20th century history as 19th century weathermen had of predicting 20th century weather. PAUL HARRISON

The #1 thing that I like about pantheism is, we don't make things up and then say, "We believe in this because of our faith." NO! We believe things that are. When about hear of news of a new discovery, we don't secretly hope that it supports our cause. Sure, it would be neat it they found intelligent life (or any life) on another planet, but if we don't that's OK. On the other hand, I have two Christian friends who do not like the idea about life on other planets. They refuse to believe that God might have made other worlds with life and therefore, refute any evidence that supports finding of extra-terrestrial life. Ask them why -- "I just don't believe there it." For me, a Pantheist, whatever, discoveries that are made are wonderful per se. They are part of the universe, and we find delight in discovering more about our universe, whatever the news might be. JEFF PITCHER